I can assume that we all believe in the Father, Ghost, and Holy Spirit. I will assume that we all accept Christ as our savior. Further, I can assume we all agree that we as individuals will be judged fairly for our sins, and will be welcomed into heaven. We all want in and we all believe we will be allowed in and not be condemned to hell. We can agree that our commonality lies within our belief and faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. Agreeing that we all believe in and have faith in our Savior, we must find the method in which we use to find our salvation.
For the simple fact that I belong to a Weslian Methodist congregation, I follow in Wesley's view of predestination. If an unclear understanding of these views need to be clearified, then a brief examination of them should be explained.
John Wesley did not follow Calvin's doctrine of predistination which believed that humans, because they are sinners, could not control their destiny. Only God could control an idividuals salvation. Wesley instead followed the Arminiastic view that God made the decision that all who have faith and are saved would enter his kingdom, but it was up to the individual to come to faith and be saved. Essentially, Wesley said that predestination was an idea or a decision God made over individuals salvation, but left the individual the decision of faith.
How does this vary from other Protestant faith's? To look into the Lutheran doctrine, we can see clearly the difference between the views of methodologies in salvation. Martin Luther believed the only requirement for permission into heaven is faith. He believed that God shields us and protects us from our own sins...including the consequences thereof. Luther believed justification occured through faith, meaning sins are automatically forgiven in death through faith alone.
Which is the right doctrine? Wesley, Luther, Calvin, all of the above, or none of them? I must say that my inclination in this discussion is quite clearly leaning to the wesleyian opproach. I feel that I am correct, but truth be told, I will only know when I am judged by the Almighty. The Lutheran doctrine, to me, seems too simple and somewhat contradictory of what Jesus himself preached. I have written in this blog many times about faith alone not being enough. I will allow the readers to come their own conclusions.
God Bless,
Brian
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This is an issue that I struggle with more than any other theological issue. I am more in line with reformed theology (Lutheran/Presbyterian) than I am with other protestant denominations.
that being said, I agree with Wesley on a lot points, and his teachings are very close to the teachings of the reformers such as Calvin and Luther. Even Wesley said that separating the teachings is basically splitting hairs.
http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/wesley.the.calvinist.htm
The problem I have is that Wesley would not recognize what is being taught in many of the churches that bear his name. Many deny that there is original sin, and many teach a very Pelagian view of salvation. The grace of God is helpful, but not necessary for salvation. Although many that hold to reformed theology have accused Wesley of Pelagianism, he is a semi-pelagian at most. I still struggle with a semi-pelagian theology, mostly because it takes away the sovereignty of God, but have more respect for it than for a purely pelagian theology.
I have a magazine article from Tabletalk (reformed magazine) that I feel explains the Pelagian Controversy very well. I'll get it to you next time I see you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagius
Brett, once again I am in agreement with you. I am not sure if Wesley would be proud to hear some of the teachings in churches which bear his name.
As for Pelagian views, I must say that an individuals free-will to avoid sin is not very plausible in my way of thinking. No matter how righteous we are in our faith, we are nevertheless sinners to the core. We can thrive to be Christ-like, but it is an endeavor in which we will fail. As for myself, I find myself in the midst of sin before I am fully aware of what I have said or done. I may feel remorse from the fact, but the sin has been committed, no matter how much regret I have.
As for splitting hairs, I could not agree more. No matter what faith, creed, or denomination, I believe if you give yourself to Christ and make strident efforts to live as you should, I would say you are likely going to be judged well and enter the Kingdom. The truth lies within Christ. We will only truly know the answers when we leave this world.
I am so glad you have commented on this subject. It is one of many issues I would like to have an open discussion about. This is one of my favorite ways of learning from my peers.
God Bless,
-Brian
Apostle Paul said that I wish to do I cannot do, that I wish not to do I do meaning we have a sinful nature we cant get around
I have a few questions that I have never been able to answer satisfactory from a semi-pelagian viewpoint.
Why am I born again, but many are not? Was it a decision that "I" made, was it a decision that "I" made in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, or was it a decision that God made beforehand? Wesley believed the second option - he called it prevenient grace. He gives enough grace so that people can accept Him, but they can say no as well.
If I said yes, and my neighbor says no, then my salvation is based on something that "I" did. Even if it is in partnership with the Holy Spirit, my salvation is based on something that I did. I believe that faith and the ability to have faith are totally due to the grace of God.
If my neighbor says no, did I receive more grace than he did, or was my "island of righteousness" larger than his? It has to be one of those two options.
Of course it gets much more complicated when we begin to speak of the innocent native in Africa, although when asked this question I usually say that there are no "innocent" natives in Africa. They need God's grace just like we do.
I believe God graces us all. I'm not sure if I believe He systematically graces some more than others. I believe sociological forces have more to do with how people decide to use their graces. We do not live in a organically solid society as do other parts of the world. For example, in the middle east, Islam is the primary faith of the region. Nearly all who live there share a common bond which is their religion. This bond allows them a great alturistic commonality where they all function in a similar manner. There religion and the spreading of their faith is their primary function as a society.
Here in America we live in a mechanically solid society. This means that we band together not for a single idea, but rather because we rely on each other economically and socially.
What I am trying to point out is this: just because you accepted Christ in your life, and your neighbor has not, does not necessarily imply that you are blessed with more grace. Instead of turning your back to God's grace, you embraced them.
God loves everyone equally. It is up to the individual to accept His love and to endeavor to do His will. As for myself, maybe I do have a semi-Pelagian viewpoint more than I want to admit.
-Brian
P.S. Keep this discussion coming. I'm loving it. I'm learning more about myself by the post.
First, I like the name Moore :)
To me it is all choice. One reason I say that is I cannot imagine a God that would create a child only to damn that child. God has given people choice over and over again. We see that in the OT where he keeps givng the people time to repent and turn from their ways. He does not force them to obey. They have a choice and die if they do not submit sooner or later.
My view is simply that God knew before the foundation of this earth, every single word that would come out of our mouth, every action we would take and if we would choose Him or not. When we were born, He created us to be saved or not saved according to the choice He knew we would make. Some created for salvation some to damnation, but all by choice, their choice.
I have heard people say it does not matter what we do as it has already been planned. That is incorrect, yes, God knows everything we will do but we do not. Our choice that "was" made in the foreknowledge of God in none the less the "choice" we make today.
The other point is that I cannot see "choice" as a "work" to earn salvation
Most methodists will fall into the semi pelagian category, along with most Southern Baptists (the denomination I grew up in). Some methodists will be pelagian (which I think is heresy), and some Baptists will have a reformed view. I am most definitely in the very small minority of members of the methodist church.
My question is still this: why me and not my neighbor?
Hey Brett, I see the depth of your question, but I honestly feel you may be looking for a deeper answer than what I can give. In my humble opinion, the answer lies within many variables.
In order for me to conclude any reason as to why you were able to be save rather than someone else, we would have to answer a few questions which would help lead to an acceptable conclusion. Since it may not be appropriate to ask you such personal questions, I will ask the question to myself.
In doing so I would first have to think back to the time in which I first truly came to Christ. The answer is simple. I found Christ several months after my dad died. I began neglecting my family, and went into a deep funk, which is a simple way of saying that I was lost and couldn't make a right decision to save my life. Although I have always considered myself a Christian, I must be truthful and say that I did not do much in the way of proving my faith.
I found Christ when I desperately needed help. I felt my life was over. I had no purpose and felt unloved, and unwated. I was on the brink of losing everything I had in life. I began to feel sorry for myself. I was kicked out of my own home and was lost to myself and to my family. I could do nothing right.
Then one night I was sitting alone in my parents old house. I sat in the dark and began to cry. Nearly all that night, I did nothing but feel sorry for myself. But sometime before dawn, I began to pray. I told my God that I was tired of being stupid. Tired of doing wrong. Admitted to Him that I didn't know what to do and that I was weak. I prayed for forgiveness. I prayed that Jesus would take over my life and show me what to do. I vowed to him that I was finished ruining my life and the lives of the ones I loved. From that moment on, I was going to learn His teaching and live by His word.
Instantly,I felt as if all my troubles seemed somewhat distant after my plea for forgiveness and accepting Christ in my life. I knew my life was a mess, but from that moment on, I knew everything would get better. Within hours of being saved, my cell phone rang. It was my wife. We spoke for only a few minutes before she asked me to come home. As much of a relief it was to hear her voice and as good as it felt to be welcomed home again, I was not surprised. Somehow I knew she would give me another chance.
That was over three years ago. To this day, I still do my best to live up the my part of the bargain I made with my maker. My life has had a complete turn around. My wife and I are closer than we have ever been, which is saying a lot. Remember, we have been together since the first day I ever laid eyes on her in 1985; the first day of our sophomore year of high school.
I know I am being long-winded, but my point is this: although I claimed to be a Christian, I really wasn't. I never allowed Christ to rule my life. It wasn't until I decided to let Him in did I truly become a Christian. This is true for everyone. I don't believe God has graced me more than you or those people who do not have Him in their life. I, like you, simply embraced this life.
I have known and still know many people who do not have Christ in their life. I do not feel that I have been graced more than them. I have chosen to give myself to Him, while other have not came to a point in their lives where they find they need him.
All people control their destinies. Although God know what our decisions will be, we don't. Some will use their wits and see the truth while others either do not have the guidance, has not truly been introduced to Christ, or for selfish reasons decided to turn their backs to God's graces.
This goes to show how much work we have. We need to spend more time evangelizing to those who have strayed. Some may just need an understanding and sympathetic Christian to lead them to the path.
But no matter if I am right or I am wrong, there are unseen forces in people's lives that we may not see. Why we have been saved is not as important as who we can lead to be saved.
With Christ's love,
-Brian
Rocky,
Welcome. I hope you will become a frequent guest here. We seem to have a lot of the same beliefs.
It is nice to have another person to learn from.
BTW, I'll visit that poll in the morning.
Thanks again,
Brian
That was well said Brian. Let me add one other variable to what helps us come to that point of finding the Lord. It is prayer. When we pray for those that have not made the choice it opens doors to help change their surroundings sometimes for good and other times for the hard times, depending on the person. There is power in prayer to help bring people to the point, but the choice is still always theirs, we just help to bring a place where they have yet another chance to hear the Holy Spirit call them.
The more people that are praying for you, I believe the more opportunities you will have and possibly the stronger you will hear the call since the prayer is removing some things that would hinder your hearing.
I too had a deeply personal experience with God, although the circumsances were different. But my original question remains. Why you and not your neighbor? If you say that you went through a horrible time in your life and realized that God is the only answer, why doesn't everyone have this opportunity? I have never talked to anyone who can answer this to my satisfaction.
This question is extremely important since it goes to the very nature of God. Is God sovereign, meaning that everything that happens is because He designed it that way and that is how He wants it? Is God more reactionary to the choices we make (even though He knows the choices that we are going to make).
If I had a good answer to my question from an Arminian viewpoint, I would have no problems. But I have to lean towards the reformed view, which has been the predominant orthodox view for most of church history.
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